FAITH, WORKS, ABORTION & MARTIN LUTHER
Faith, Works, Abortion, & Martin Luther
The recent murder of Dr. George Tiller by Scott Roeder has caused me to reflect. As far as I can tell both of these men lived their lives as they saw devout Christians should. Lindsay Perna and Tiffany Stanley writing for the Salt Lake Tribune’s Religion News Service state the following:
Dr. George Tiller’s murder last Sunday morning in the lobby of his Lutheran church counters the secular image of a late-term abortion provider, pinning him more as a churchgoing “martyr” than a godless murderer.
“It shows a dimension of the movement that a lot of people don’t know about,” said the Rev. Carlton Veazey, president of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. “This man was castigated for what he did — but he was a faithful member of the Lutheran church and that gives a different view of him and his work.”
Veazey sees the face of Tiller as more of “a martyr in the same sense that Dr. [Martin Luther] King was.”
Rev. Carlton Veazey sees Tiller as “a faithful member of the Lutheran church.” Before I unwrap this statement I want to point to how Roeder’s was viewed by his ex-wife. In a June 1, 2009 article out of Merriam, Kansas entitled; Scott Roeder’s Ex-Wife: “He Could Actually Do It” the reporter, Monica Evans quotes the wife saying the following:
Lindsey Roeder told FOX 4 on Friday Scott insisted on seeing their son, now 22. He took him to a movie, dinner and to get ice cream. The ex says it's very unusual because Roeder observes his Sabbath at sundown on Friday and always adheres to it.
Y’all walk with me while I lay this foundation because I am going somewhere with this. This word picture has got to be painted so you understand the provocative statements, I mean real provocative statements to follow. Allie Martin, a reporter for OneNews.Now reported the following:
On a recent webcast of his daily radio talk show, Wiley Drake, former second vice-president of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), called last Sunday's murder of Tiller "an answer to prayer." Then during an interview with Alan Colmes on Fox News Radio, Drake said he was praying the same type of "imprecatory prayer" against the president of the United States. (Allie Martin “OneNews.Now)
Lord help us today!! What has happened to Christians? We have a Christian doctor, George Tiller, who sees himself as a good Christian by killing babies that are almost ready to be born out of women’s wombs. We have Scott Roeder, who allegedly kills Dr. Tiller to stop him from killing babies. Mr. Roeder sees his act as an expression of his Christian faith. And then we have Rev. Wiley Drake who states that Mr. Roeder’s killing of Dr. Tiller was the answer to his “imprecatory prayer”, and he is praying the same prayer so that President Obama experiences the same fate. Imprecatory means “to call down something bad or harmful, especially a curse, on somebody.” So Rev. Drake has called down a curse on Dr. Tiller and President Obama and still considers himself, along with Dr. Tiller seeing himself, and Scott Roeder seeing himself as being Christians in good standing with God. How? In my opinion, the answer to the question goes back to the theology of Martin Luther. Are y’all ready for this?
The origin of all Christian sects other than Catholicism can be traced to Martin Luther. Luther was excommunicated from the Catholic Church in 1619. There were a number of things with which Luther took issue with Catholic operation; Catholic theology that said God held one accountable for their actions was a source of great worry for Luther. Here’s why.
Luther had a problem with women. He felt that the liberties that he took with women would cause him to have eternal life in hell. No matter how hard he tried he could not get himself to the place that he was satisfied with the life that he was living. He felt that he was unworthy and did not merit eternal life if judged by a righteous God. Then while studying the Bible he had what I learned in seminary what was called a “tower experience.” My church history professor, Mark Ellingsen, who wrote the book out of which we studied entitled “Reclaiming Our Roots”, puts it this way:
The breakthrough for Luther in his struggles came through dealing with the Book of Romans and its references (1:17; 3:5, 21-22) to the “righteousness of God.” In essence, Luther discovered that the “justice,” more properly the righteousness, of God does not refer to the punishment of sinners. ...This righteousness is a passive righteousness given to the faithful, not because they fulfill the demands of divine justice, but because God gives it to them as a free gift (Romans 3:21ff.). The faithful have been released from the spiritual burden of having to strive to achieve righteousness, for it is already theirs as a gift. ...Though sin remains, it does not count against us; thus, there is no need to despair (lectures on Romans, in Luther Works 25:258ff). (Ellingsen p. 29).
This so-called theological insight on Luther’s part allows Christians to do unrighteous stuff and still see themselves entering into the kingdom of heaven. By Luther’s theology your behavior has nothing to do with whether you are a good Christian or not. One gets eternal life by the grace of God. No matter what you do, if you have faith, then the kingdom of God is yours. You can kill babies in their mother’s womb, kill the doctor that killed the babies, and pray that someone kills the doctor and the President and still make it into the kingdom of God according to Luther’s theology. There is no punishment for sin. The Book of Romans was written by Paul of Tarsus. Howard Thurman speaks about his grandmother having issues with Paul, and she wouldn’t read his biblical writings. She felt Paul’s writings justified slavery. In fact, slave holders used Paul’s words exactly that way.
Luther because of his interpretation of Paul’s writings came up with the theological position of “predestination.” We still hear the remnants of this theology echoed in the church today. When we say it is already decided before you were born we are pronouncing Luther’s theology. This language is saying that life is predetermined. This theology is very dangerous. It allowed Europeans to go to Africa and enslave its people and still be good Christians. It allowed America to invade Iraq under false pretenses and still believe it would be able to get into the kingdom of God. Luther’s “tower experience” has caused people to feel they can do what they want in the name of God and not be held accountable by God. According to Luther, it is your faith, not your works that get you eternal life. The message is to hold on to your faith, don’t worry about your works. It is your faith that will see you through. There is nothing that you can do that will get you into heaven. Paul says that eternal life is free. Eternal life is a gift of your faith, not your works. My question is if there is nothing you can do to get you in, is there something that you can do to keep you out? James seems to think so.
The Book of James is attributed to being written by Jesus’ brother (Mt. 13:55; Mk 6:3; Gal 1:19) who became the leader of the church in Jerusalem (Gal 2:9, 12; Acts 12:17, 15:13, 21:18). Yes Jesus had brothers and some sisters too (Matthew 12:46-50). James writes the following:
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? ... So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one, you do well. Even the demons believe and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. (James 2:14-24).
James is telling us faith without works is dead. Paul is saying don’t worry about the works, just have faith. Now who is the better source to believe what Jesus would have us to do. Is the better source Paul or James. Let’s see. Paul never saw or heard Jesus in the flesh. James grew up in the same family. This, for me, is a no brainer. James should know Jesus much better than Paul. Although Paul says some good things, he must me read and analyzed very carefully. I think his Roman citizenship clouded his Jewish upbringing. Christians must be known by our works. Our works tell people the depth of our faith. Carrying out abortions, killing doctors that carry out abortions, preachers praying the someone will kill a doctor who carries out abortions and prays that someone will also kill the President is not the works of a God fearing Christian. I believe that this type of Christianity can be traced to Luther’s “tower experience.” Roeder’s works cannot be viewed as a good example of what Jesus would do, and nor can Dr. Tiller be viewed as a martyr similar to Martin Luther King. To do so is a distorted example of the lessons that Jesus taught. Let him without sin cast the first stone. If we followed this lesson then there would be no stones cast. Bishop T. Garrott Benjamin on last Sunday taught about the scripture according to you. The message is well worth putting into practice. People would much rather see a sermon than listen to one. Our faith will be known by our works. Thank you for listening to AjabuSpeaks.
Rev. Ajabu
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Reverend Ajabu,
I have been attending a Presbyterian Church. I am not a Presbyterian because I am wrestling with the idea of predestination. But I am reading a book that is helping me with the concept of predestination. What is giving me trouble in my understanding is my humanity.
I see the world as having a timeline. I have a birth, a life, a death. Seeing myself as "predestined" and then seeing that predestiny as "so God has PLANNED what I will do" fights with my concept of free will. The truth is. Yes. I have a timeline. God does not have that timeline. He created time and therefore, he exists outside of it. The author I am reading says to think of it as God hovering above the timeline. He can see any point of our life along that time line....whereas, we cannot. So our predestiny means that God sees our whole timeline. It therefore, is not conflicting with free will. God isn't pulling our strings. He can just see the whole timeline. It also does not mean that we can do whatever we want and get a free pass.
I do not see James and Paul as in conflict. James is telling us that if we are genuinely living our faith...studying scripture, praying, seeking, listening to the Holy Spirit in our lives...we are going to see our sinful ways and we are going to seek a life that looks like our savior. We are going to move on to meat from milk if we persevere. We won't be sinless, but our lives will become more holy. We will be more and more like Christ. But we will never be sinless. Blameless, yes, because we are covered by Christ. Sinless, no.
So, after decades of Christianity, I am BEGINNING to get my arms around this. I can begin to understand how free will and predestination can be both true.
And I can see how both Paul and James are reconciled.
The problem is not with God, Paul or James. The problem is us. Upon becoming Christians, we do not immediately become like Christ. That comes from commitment to study of the Word and the working of the the Spirit. I am walking closer to Christ than I was 10 years ago. I'm not more saved, however. I just know more.
Works are important because as you grow in your faith, you cannot ignore that works are how you show love to humanity. But I think that at the time of Jesus' death, he made it clear that accepting him as savior was enough for the new Christian.
Luke 23:39-43.....And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, if thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
And we indeed just; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into they kingdom.
And Jesus said unto him, verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Clearly, James does not believe you can live your life immersed in the Word and the Spirit and not be moved to action. But also quite clearly, Paul is right. Even the malefactor, who recognizes Christ as the son of God and the source of salvation can receive grace.
I caution you to not cast off the writers of the books of the Bible that are not comfortable to you. The entire Bible is relevant....but it works together and it works ON you. The Mary Martha story has always troubled me. It doesn't seem right. But it is.
Our pastor spoke on the story of the workers in the field this past Sunday - Matthew 20:1-15. Troubling. It defies human logic. But true, nonetheless.
Paul is right. James is right. Together, they work divinely together.
In my mind the importance of your message does not need the trappings of Tiller, for the importance of the Journey for the flock, must be the expression of action from faith. Well put, very well put.
Thank you,
Tony
hey man !!! you knocked this one out of the park !!!!! if more preachers would talk about this stuff [ how flawed and contradictory religion can be ] and stop lying to everyone about getting rich [ preaching prosperity ] i might even start going to church !! lol
Reverend Ajabu,
I think that you have caused some unintentioned confusion on this one. The Bible is not flawed. Religion, perhaps. But not the Bible. You may not UNDERSTAND the Bible. The places where it is not clear to you might require a deeper study, but the Bible is not flawed. It is a tool for lifelong study, aided by a community of believers and the work of the spirit.
Reverend,
I re-read my post when I said "YOU" might not understand the Bible, I did not mean that "YOU" to be directed at you personally....just to people who are students of the Bible in general....,myself included.
Conservative Christian,
In your first post you make the following statement:
I do not see James and Paul as in conflict. James is telling us that if we are genuinely living our faith...studying scripture, praying, seeking, listening to the Holy Spirit in our lives...we are going to see our sinful ways and we are going to seek a life that looks like our savior. We are going to move on to meat from milk if we persevere. We won't be sinless, but our lives will become more holy. We will be more and more like Christ. But we will never be sinless. Blameless, yes, because we are covered by Christ. Sinless, no.
Your above statement makes my point, especialy the last two sentences. "Blameless"? That is the issue. People have taken advantage of God's gift. Because Jesus died for our sins people have interpreted that his death means we will be "blameless" for our behavior. I'm telling you this is dangerous and a theology of "cheap grace" that is going to cause a bunch of people to go to hell. All of us will be held accountable. What would it look like for a non-repentant murder getting into heaven because his/her theology holds them blameless? Because of Paul's desire to violate the law of Moses he came up with a distorted analysis of Jesus' teachings. Paul wanted to eat that pork, and be recognized as a good Roman citizen. The Roman's used the eating of pork to see what Jews were with them or not. This very issue caused the Macabee brothers to lead a revolution. They could not handle the Romans desecrating the temple by bringing that pork in there. Read your history of the church. James writes after Paul. In fact, scholars believe that James 2:14-26 is a response to Paul. James is correcting Paul. My sister, you will not be held blameless in heaven for your misdeeds on earth. Dr. Tiller will be held accountable. Mr. Roeder will be held accountable. You, me and everyone else will be held accountable for our behavior. Our faith will be known by our actions. God is a just God. When Jesus returns to right the world those who think that He died so they can do just about anything and get away with it are going to have hell to pay. In all your getting, you better get an understanding. God bless.
Reverend,
We will be judged, but we will not be cast off into hell. I recommend that you listen to Mark Driscoll's sermon on Revelations. It is hard to believe sometimes how you can be both so right and so wrong all at the same time. You must work very hard at it.
If you believe what you say you believe, there will be no saints in heaven. Thankfully, you are clearly so perfect that you will be alone with Jesus. If you cast off even Paul, then the rest of us are doomed.
I am smiling as I write this. You and Paul are so alike.
I think that this is good teaching in a simple to understand reading. James is right in saying that you cannot be a believer and not produce good works, but Paul is also correct in saying that your works cannot be good enough. If you believe you can "works" yourself to heaven, you are in deep trouble.
Bottom line, Paul and James are not in conflict.
Question: "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"
Answer: This is perhaps the most important question in all of Christian theology. This question is the cause of the Reformation, the split between the Protestant churches and Catholic Church. This question is a key difference between biblical Christianity and most of the “Christian” cults. Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works? Am I saved just by believing in Jesus, or do I have to believe in Jesus and do certain things?
The question of faith alone or faith plus works is made difficult by some hard-to-reconcile Bible passages. Compare Romans 3:28, 5:1 and Galatians 3:24 with James 2:24. Some see a difference between Paul (salvation is by faith alone) and James (salvation is by faith plus works). Paul dogmatically says that justification is by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), while James appears to be saying that justification is by faith plus works. This apparent problem is answered by examining what exactly James is talking about. James is refuting the belief that a person can have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). James is emphasizing the point that genuine faith in Christ will produce a changed life and good works (James 2:20-26). James is not saying that justification is by faith plus works, but rather that a person who is truly justified by faith will have good works in his/her life. If a person claims to be a believer, but has no good works in his/her life, then he/she likely does not have genuine faith in Christ (James 2:14, 17, 20, 26).
Paul says the same thing in his writings. The good fruit believers should have in their lives is listed in Galatians 5:22-23. Immediately after telling us that we are saved by faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8-9), Paul informs us that we were created to do good works (Ephesians 2:10). Paul expects just as much of a changed life as James does: “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come” (2 Corinthians 5:17). James and Paul do not disagree in their teaching regarding salvation. They approach the same subject from different perspectives. Paul simply emphasized that justification is by faith alone while James put emphasis on the fact that genuine faith in Christ produces good works.
Conservative Christian,
Reconcile the so-called Christian behavior of Dr. Tiller and Scott Roeder in terms of James and Paul. By Paul's theology both are good Christians. By James, they will have issues when it comes time to account. Yes, all of us fall short. Yes, there is not enough that we can do that would justify us getting into heaven. However, is there enough that we can do that will justify us not being able to enter into heaven? Can American continue to carry out an unjust war in Iraq and still be considered in the sight of God of following the example of Jesus? Could Dr. Tiller continue to kill babies in the womb and still be considered to be a good example of Jesus? Can Scott Roeder still be a good Christian because he killed Dr. Tiller in the name of his Christian belief? I say not. They so yes if we are strictly justified by our faith. The way that Paul has expressed his theology has allowed people to interpret in to do some very hideous things. History bears witness. Am I perfect. No! Absolutely not! Will I have to account for my behavior on earth when it is time to get into heaven? You better believe it. Will Dr. Tiller, Scott Roeder, you and me get into heaven. Only by the grace of God. Is it possible that our behavior will cause our faith to be questioned when it comes time to account? I believe so. Therefore, I advise you, me, America, and the rest of the world to straighten up. We will have to account. The verdict of the account is not a done deal because of our faith. We better have some works that indicated how genuine is our faith. Amen!!!
Reverend Ajabu,
Only God knows what is in the hearts of men. I caution you to not attempt to judge that. I find it irreconcilable to look at a Dr. Tiller or a Scott Roeder and see them as Christians. But I am not the judge. Nor are you. You cannot see their lives in their entirety, nor can I. People may use Paul's words to justify their sin. I see that God used Paul's words to welcome sinners.
You see, Reverend, after you die, your "chances" are over. But until you die, God gives you chance after chance to accept his grace and come to faith. You will be judged, if you accept his grace, most assuredly, but you will not be condemned.
Paul's words have moved many a sinner toward a closer relationship with the savior. Without them, many would have never pursued a relationship at all.
Fantastic piece! Erudite, well written - very informative.
It takes courage these days to admit that the Bible is a very complex document, one that at times doesn't easily (or at all) reconcile itself between authors.
I learned a lot! Thanks!
Reverend,
Read Neal's comment and ask yourself. Is that what you were trying to communicate? That the Bible doesn't reconcile itself between authors?
I really hope not.
Conservative Christian,
When violence is used as a tool of your faith, in the case of Dr. Tiller killing the babies, or Scott Roeder killing him, Paul would say they are candidates for heaven because of God's grace. Is their behavior an example of Jesus' teachings? Do you believe that this is the type of behavior that God would judge and say enter in? One could use Paul's theology and answer the question in the affirmative. I am not one to say what God's judgement would be for this type of behavior. However, if this type of behavior qualifies believers to get into heaven then I would have to say they have cheapened God's grace. Consistently displaying this type of murder as an example of your faith is not what God would have us to do and is outside the teachings of Jesus. Jesus said what you do to the least of these you have done to Him. Jesus said he did not come to change not one jot nor tittle of the law, but to fulfill it. The law clearly says thou shalt not kill. Paul says because Jesus gave his life for our sins the law is no longer in effect. That is a drastic change! Who do we believer, Paul or Jesus? That choice is yours. God bless.
Reverend Ajabu,
No matter what you have done, you are forgiveable. It is a BASIC tenet of the Christian faith. If you repent and accept Jesus as your savior, you are forgiven. Paul is correct.
Do I know if Tiller or Roeder repented and sought Christ's forgiveness? No. I don't. And neither do you. Only Jesus knows that, friend. Only Jesus.
Conservative Christian,
You are missing the point. Dr. Tiller and Scott Roeder did what they did because they believed that is what their faith called for. They thought that killing babies and killing the Dr. because he killed babies was an act of their faith. They were not trying to repent because they saw they had nothing to repent for. They killed within the belief of their faith. James said by your actions you show your faith. Tiller and Roeder showed us their faith by their behavior. By Paul's theological formula they still would be elgible for entering into the kingdom. Again, I am not going to judge them for that is the domain of God's and God's alone. However, I am asking the question, if you can't do enough works to get into heaven, can you do enough bad works to keep you out? I think the answer to the last part of the previous question is yes. If not, then why is there a hell? Yes, if Tiller and Roeder repented then I believe heaven is theirs. But because they saw no reason to repent, I am not sure that God would say well done, thy good and faithful servants. Luther's concept of predestination or Calvin's concept of the "elect" is two sides of the same coin. Both of these theological formulas allow you to get into heaven without your works being taken into consideration. Both of these formulas say the decision on who gets into heaven and who does not is made before one is even born. There are no works before birth. This is dangerous and a slick way to not be held accountable for how we behave on earth. In my humble opinion, both formulas are flawed. I pray that God continues to order our steps. Our steps are a true indication of our faith. Our faith is known by our steps. Please be careful how you step. Our salvation is not a done deal. We will have to account. God bless.
Reverend,
Perhaps I did miss your point. As you are missing mine. In the case of Roeder, it is hard to imagine that he repented for his killing of Tiller. But perhaps he did. He was clearly very in tune with the plight of the "least of these". How much more innocent can you be than a viable term infant unwanted by your mother? If our national leaders will not do what is right and outlaw the procedure, I can certainly see how Roeder might have seen the protection of the life of the infant as defensible against the life of the killer. Our leaders should have made the correct moral decision on partial birth abortion. They did not. Most notably, our President. I note that Roeder did not commit suicide. Perhaps he has since come to Jesus and asked for forgiveness. Perhaps Jesus will consider that the infants, as children, were needing protection. I cannot know. As you cannot. Nor can I know whether or not Roeder repents his murder and seeks forgiveness. If he is, indeed, a Christian, he probably does. I find his case very sad. If a murderer is going after a small child within your presence and you intervene, killing the murderer to save the child, will God have mercy if you seek it?
Tiller worked with women who often were in extreme pain for many reasons. Perhaps they had been raped. Perhaps they were enduring extreme hardship or mental health problems. Perhaps their husbands were violent. Tiller saw himself as intervening on behalf of these women. I can see how he could have empathy for these women. I hear people talk about how conservatives should adopt the babies they want to save from abortion. It is the same point. I think it is flawed. The babies are the least among us. Jesus clearly had a special heart for children. But that WAS Tiller's perspective. As a "Christian"...debateable, to be sure, he might have sought God's guidance and might have already asked for forgiveness. I'm not sure that God ever forgives acts of murder against innocent children, however. But the truth is, liberals often favor the perpetrator over the victim if the perpetrator was also in pain.
Regarding predestination, I think you need to go back and read my comments. I don't think you understand the topic. Calvinists and Lutherans don't think that God PICKS the elect, per se. He just knows the whole story of your life before you live it. Not because he is controlling you. You have free will, but because he can see all of time....because he is not constrained by it.
I have studied this topic specifically because I am attending a Presbyterian church. The topic troubles me so I felt I had to understand the perspective better. I am not totally comfortable with it, yet, but I understand better what it means. Now I think it is time that you spent some time with the topic yourself....just as you clearly need to spend more time with Paul....the writer of at least 13 of the books of the New Testament...who you have issue with.
I think that you should consider that the fact that you have issues means you might need to seek better understanding.
I will also tell you that I caution YOU as a human to evaluate the "steps" of others. You do not know their lives, their hearts, their capacities or their constraints. You also do not know how God is directing the steps of others. You can only evaluate them on your own yardstick. A yardstick that clearly is limited by your perspective.
Conservative Christian,
I am going to respond to your response point by point. I don't, as you don't, know whether Roeder has repented or not. I would question whether a person would repent when they believe what they have done is within the will of their faith in God. To do so would mean that they didn't believe what they say they believe. Outlawing late birth abortion is a step in the right direction, in my opinion, however there does not have to be a law for me to believe in my God. Yes, Jesus said, what you do to the least of these you have done to me. However, Jesus did not say the solution to the killing of babies is to kill the Dr. taking the babies lives. Roder could have repented, and in my mind, should repent, but it is just hard for me to see him doing that when he believes his behavior was a testament of his faith.
As for your point about Dr. Tiller, he may have asked God for forgiveness. But what good is it to ask to be forgiven for something that you keep on doing? If he did, and again neither of us know whether he did or he didn't, it just seem to me that if he did and kept on doing what he was asking forgiveness for then he would not be taking God's forgiveness seriously. Your observation concerning liberals and conservatives is of no consequence to me. This is not about labels. I would imagine that Dr. Tiller probably had a liberal bent while Roeder has a conservative bent. Neither label, in my mind, justifies their behavior to solve the issue. I'll let you and Marshall debate that. Party politics is killing America.
Regarding predestination, I think you should take your own advice to go back and read what you wrote. When you do so you will find out that you wrote about what someone said about predestination, not what Luther or Calvin said. In my studies, I have not come across anywhere that Luther or Calvin propose life as a timeline. Luther used the language of predestination and as he developed this theological formula he went to double predestination. Luther progressed to think that not only was it predetermined by God who would get into heaven, but God also predetermined before birth who would get into hell. Calvin pretty much developed the same formula with different language. Calvin used the language of "election" to say that God elected before birth on who would go to heaven and who would go to hell. Both of these men were trying to irradicate works as a measure that God would use to decide our afterlife fate. Neither of these men, talked about a timeline of which I am aware. If you read your own writing again, you will find out that you are talking about someone else, not either Luther or Calvin. As for spending time with Paul, my concentration in seminary was New Testament. I have studied Paul pretty indepth. I am clear on where I stand on Paul. Paul has some good things to say but Paul's words has lent themselves to be used by despots to do some awful things in the name of Christianity. I would respectfully advise you to spend some sincere, quality time with Paul in light of the church's history. I am always seeking a better understanding, however, sometimes God is so wonderful to put me in a position to give an understanding. This is a case in point.
Wiley Drake, former second vice-president of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), called last Sunday's murder of Tiller "an answer to prayer." Then during an interview with Alan Colmes on Fox News Radio, Drake said he was praying the same type of "imprecatory prayer" against the president of the United States.
Rev. Drake is a clearer example of how Paul's only faith formula is a very dangerous tool for some people who call themselves Christians. As you can see above Rev. Drake prayed that someone would kill Dr. Tiller and President Obama too. He is praying prayes for killing because of his faith, not in spite of his faith. By Paul's theological formula he would still be in good standing with God because his works has nothing to do with his salvation. James' formula helps us to see Drake's faith by his works. I would venture to say that to pray for someone's murder is not what Jesus taught us to do. And when this life is over Drake is going to have to account. The sentence for this behavior will be determined by God. If God lets Drake into heaven because of his faith says to kill people who do not do the will of God, then that will be God's decision. Understand I don't know, but it would be hard for me to believe that in light of Drake's prayer, which he is obviously still praying in relationship to President Obama, it would be hard for me to believe that God would say to Drake, well done thy good and faithful servant. It would be very hard for me to believe that. In fact, I would have to question God will hard if this kind of faith is allowed into the Kingdom. At that point God would not appear to me to be just. The God I serve is a just God. One cannot pray for the demise of people, then say that the prayer was answered and be alright with the God that I serve. So-called believers can't enslave my people and because they say they have faith be looked at by the God I serve as being a good servant of God. I serve a just God. What about you?
Your last paragraph is well taken and with which I agree. I would just advise you to not give advise to which you do not adhere. Don't take that wrong. I am strictly saying be an example of what you teach. God bless.
Reverend,
Nice twisting. You do that a lot.
I have said that I do not know the hearts of Roeder or Tiller. You seem to. Interesting. The more you speak, the clearer that gets. You have no idea.
I refer to liberal and you say party. Liberal is not a party. There are many Republicans who I do not agree with on much. Republican is a party. Right now....a party that doesn't seem to stand for much. It used to be the party of low taxes, and small government. Clearly that is not the case any more. I do not pin myself to Republicans. You somehow see me as the opposite of Marshall on politics. Marshall calls himself a Democrat. I am a faith voter and a fiscal voter. Other than Mitch Daniels, I haven't seen a fiscally responsible candidate running for any major race in years. Certainly not Bush. Not McCain.
It is really strange for me to read the words of a pastor who says that he thinks that Paul "has some good things to say" Some despots have used his words? Really? Despots have also distorted the words of Jesus. Does that invalidate Jesus? Do you pick and choose from his words, too? The Bible is a COMPLETE document. None of the words stand alone although lots of people...including conservatives... use them to convolute the message. Paul's message to the Gentiles is true. How people choose to misinterpret it is false.
One thing I am sure of, Reverend. Even though you have repented of sin and have become a Christian, you continue to sin. Yes...even on the same issues. Over and over and over. I know that I do. I was raised in a household where the Lord's name is used in vain. I have been praying for help in eliminating this as a habit in my speech. I have mostly been successful with the help of the spirit and prayer. But I have not been totally successful. I have thought things about people that were not of good intent. Thinking badly toward others is the same as murder. To think that repentence means you think you will stop sinning is very interesting to me. The truth is that holiness comes about gradually and incrementally and you will, in fact, NEVER become pure without God's grace covering you. God loves you ANYway if you love him and seek him. And as the spirit continually moves in you, you will become more like him...which is where James comes in. A lifetime of study of the life of Jesus and his words certainly ought to move you to works. But Reverend Ajabu won't be the judge of what counts and what doesn't...what's good and what's bad...what's enough and what's not.
And finally, predestination. Keep reading. You'll get it. From Calvin himself: When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things have ever been, and perpetually remain, before His eyes, so that to His knowledge nothing in future or past, but all things are present; and present in such a manner, that He does not merely conceive of them from ideas formed in His mind, as things remembered by us appear present to our minds, but really beholds and sees them as if actually placed before Him. And this foreknowledge extends to the whole world, and to all the creatures.
God knows all. Past, present, future. That seems a statement of the obvious. I think it is the term predestination that bothers humans. Because it implies a lack of choice, which it is not. You have choice. God just already knows what it is. I think that the Calvinists are probably right about that.
Once again, Reverend.
I will take a break from your page. The spirit tells me that I need to do this. Christians who believe in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior....who believe in Christ crucified who rose from the dead and acscension...who believe that the Bible is the word of God...who believe in the Trinity...should focus on the savior. They shouldn't be nitpicking doctrine outside of the core truth. And I am sure that you know that. But somehow, that is what this blog encourages. In a very unhealthy way.
Conservative Christian,
If only those who are called by my name would humble themselves. You really sound humble. You obviously don't know Calvin or Luther's doctrine. You sound pretty solid in your Christology, but a babe in the woods in your church history. God bless you in your break. Your works will be key to your entry into heaven. Don't go for the hype. Jesus is coming back to judge your works as an indication of your faith. We all better get right.
Ajabu,
Please listen to yourself.
I even gave you Calvin's own words.
They say what they say.
"When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things have ever been, and perpetually remain, before His eyes, so that to His knowledge nothing in future or past, but all things are present; and present in such a manner, that He does not merely conceive of them from ideas formed in His mind, as things remembered by us appear present to our minds, but really beholds and sees them as if actually placed before Him. And this foreknowledge extends to the whole world, and to all the creatures."
Calvin's OWN words.
I will not be coming back to your blog.
Quite frankly, I don't learn anything here. My faith does not grow here. Your faith is tainted so deeply by personal prejudice..at least for now...and a desire to be right...even if you have to eliminate entire sections of the Bible to make your point I fear that this blinder on your understanding won't be broken without lots more personal pain. Your works will never be enough, Reverend. Never enough. Nor will mine.
Grace is a gift. Freely given. But those who accept the gift show their acceptance through a prayerful pursuit of the Word and the Spirit. In that pursuit, Christ is revealed. Christ who asks us to follow him. Christ who did good works. But the works are not the end. The pursuit of Jesus is the end. The works are just part of the fruit. If you aren't producing any fruit it's not a good indication of the seeds having been correctly planted. True. But your works will always fall short. I know this. I've tried. I have a Martha spirit, to be sure. There was a day when I felt like I had to "works" myself to death. Everything around me started to crumble. My children and my husband in particular. God led me to scriptures about being a Godly wife. My frantic pursuit of works was out of balance with my need to build a relationship with Jesus and my family. I adjusted. My family became healthier. My relationship with God grew.
Martha was the diligent servant. but Jesus loved Mary more. A pretty harsh lesson to all those people who want to live in your world where you are proving yourself to be either "good enough" or not "too bad".
Reverend, I know that you are a believer and that you are being moved by the spirit and the word. It is obvious God is working in your life. Since Paul is the writer of MOST of the New Testament, I will pray that God will reveal himself to you more thoroughly in Paul's words. Although you see that people have misused them, alternatively, these words of grace have released many a sinner. I worry a lot more about your lack of understanding about Paul and Grace than I do about your lack of understanding about predestination.
Predestination is not a foundational truth. It is doctrine based on interpretation. Based on Paul's writings, I know that God wouldn't want us arguing about predestination. But I'm quite confident that if you met with Jesus today, he would tell you to go spend a lot more time with Paul.
In my studies, I have not come across anywhere that Luther or Calvin propose life as a timeline.
"When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things have ever been, and perpetually remain, before His eyes, so that to His knowledge nothing in future or past, but all things are present; and present in such a manner, that He does not merely conceive of them from ideas formed in His mind, as things remembered by us appear present to our minds, but really beholds and sees them as if actually placed before Him. And this foreknowledge extends to the whole world, and to all the creatures."
Calvin's words. Life is a timeline to you. It isn't to God. God has the advantage of foreknowledge. Predestination = the result of God's foreknowledge.
Rev Ajabu
I am not equipped to debate all of those theological points and I will not try. I will however, remind you of the thief on the cross who obviously did something in order for him to end up on the cross beside Jesus. He asked Jesus to remember him and Jesus said, this day you will be with me in paradise.
I don't think Roeder made it to that point yet but he can ask for forgiveness. In defense of Dr Tiller, a contract was made between the mother of the aborted child or the family of a retarded or mentally challenged female who has an unwanted pregnancy. Dr Tiller followed the wishes of the female and her family. As a physician, he had to use his clinical judgment; abort to save the mother's life, abort to prevent a severely retarded baby[physically or mentally] from coming into this world to be cared for its entire life. That is between Dr Tiller, the mother, and God. How he will be judged is not the same way Roeder will be judged. Roeder decided to end Dr Tiller's life because of abortions without taking into account each individual reason as to why Dr Tiller performed abortions.
It would be a blessing for Dr Tiller if he went to God in prayer and asked for forgiveness before each abortion, we don't know. But I truly think that the Roeder murder is very different from Dr Tiller's reasons for each abortion.
There are cases when we take people off of life support and allow them to die. Wouldn't Roeder want us to keep them alive and brain dead for however long they last??
Roeder does not need to stop with Dr Tiller, why not kill those who send these innocent young boys to their death in war, the governors like George Bush was who killed more people on death row than any other U.S. governor, the police who have killed so many innocent unarmed Black men in America, the makers and sellers of cigarettes, alcohol, illicit drugs, and so many more. Why just those doctors who perform abortions; surely the mothers who went to the clinic should be murdered too if we go by the Roeder judgment program. He has replaced God in his decision to remove Dr Tiller from this earth but he stopped with only abortions. You see how nonsensical Roeder is with just focusing only on those who do abortions. He will definitely burn in hell.
I keep getting feedback about party politics and I simply say, that it is the basis of our democracy. I work with the party that looks out for the masses in need rather than a party that helps the rich and the well connected. Everybody should be with any party that addresses the needs of the masses. Right now we have to fight the Republicans and the Southern Democrats in order to get health care for our 46 million Americans who don't have it.
The anti abortion people should lead the effort to get universal health care in order to keep millions of Americans alive and healthy. It is one thing to kill people about the fetus and yet look the other way when it comes to human beings already on the earth that are dying like flies.
The political party is just a means by which we can meet the needs of the masses and what is so wrong with that.
John
Wow!! Looks like I hit the motherlode.
Conservative Christian (Dawn):
Your say the following about me:
"Your faith is tainted so deeply by personal prejudice..at least for now...and a desire to be right...even if you have to eliminate entire sections of the Bible to make your point I fear that this blinder on your understanding won't be broken without lots more personal pain."
So you are praying that I have added pain in my life. That is pretty much the same prayer that Drake prayed for Dr. Tiller and President Obama. You say you don't learn anything from this website. Is it possible that you could learn that, in my opinion and probably in Jesus' opinion, people who follow Jesus do not pray for people to have pain, nor pray for people to be murdered. Your statement is very hateful. I pray that God helps you to see the error of your ways. To pray for someone to have pain in order to modify their behavior to fit your thinking is really abhorant. I pray for you, I really do.
Also, your quote from Calvin is not about a timeline. The quote is about the all knowledgeable attribute of God. God knows everything from beginning to end. God's knowledge of everything does not equate to God predetermining reality. If one were to take that theological formula, which many people in your heritage did, then it was predetermined that white folks were to enslave Black folks! Taken further using the theological formula of predestination, then it would have been an act of God, and ordained by God for whites to enslave Africans. This could not be further from the truth. God did not decide that Black folks should be enslaved by white folks. White folks decided that. God definitely allowed it, but God did not decide it. The enslavement of Black folk by white folk was an act of the devil. People now, who are benefitting from Black folks enslavement are experiencing the fruits of the devil. Them fruits need to be given back to the people from which they were took. This next statement I say with all humility, but it is a fact. It is interesting that the denominations that believe in "predestination" or "election" are overwhelmingly predominately white. Predesdination conveniently allows whites to not be held accountable for enslaving Africans and oppressing a good portion of the world. In fact, the predestination formula allows whites to fool themselves into believing they were good Christians by enslaving Black people. This is why I say the predestination theology is a dangerous formula. What kind of God would support the enslavement of his people. Two Sundays ago I taught about this in my Sunday School Class. The bottom line is that when God instructed Adam and Eve to have dominion over all life upon the earth there were no people on the earth other than Adam and Eve. Therefore, that command was not for humans to have dominion over each other. Our commands was to love each other as we love ourselves. Your praying for me to have pain in my life, or Drake praying for Dr. Tiller and President Obama to be killed are not prayers of love. Clearly, in my mind, you are outside of the will of God with those prayers. I truly pray that you both get back within God's will. Dawn, I especially pray for you. You have taught all upon this web that you have a good heart even though you are misguided. It appears your attempt at being more knowledgeable than all others is an attempt to keep people from seeing your being misguided. It is not working. We see you for who you are. The cover has been pulled. I pray that you will get back on the straight and narrow, and quit trying to hide your being misguided by your buying into your misguidance being predetermined. No!! Your are taking your steps by your own free will. God is not misguiding you. You are doing that to yourself. God is not guiding you to pray for me to have pain in my life. That is you, not God. I pray for you. I truly do.
Marshall,
I pray that you are right about Dr. Tiller's constant prayer concerning his behavior. Neither of us know, but I pray that you are right.
As far as the political parties, I still say that party politics are killing America. What do you think about the non-partisan mayor's election that presently exists in Atlanta? All mayoral candidates run as independents. There are no political party primaries. I think this is a good model for all elected offices. It would throw them races wide open.
Also your point about people who are against abortions should really be championing universal healthcare. Too many women decide to get an abortion because they can't afford the child. Universal healthcare would be a small step in the right direction to address that issue. God bless. May God continue of order our steps. Our steps are not predetermine. Our steps are determined by our free will. At our death we will have to account to God about our choice of steps. We can't use as a defense that God our steps were predetermined by you, so if I stepped wrong, then God blame yourself. It won't work. It's a poor defense. God is love!! We should increase the love and decrease the hate. God bless.
This blog is jumping! Sounds like Conservative Christian is continuing to preserve her self-righteousness.
Reverend,
I never said that I pray for your pain. I fear for you. Your pain has always been so great. But I know that God wants to use you. It is really apparent. But as someone who preaches false doctrine and who twists peoples' words for your convenience, which always seems to be toward racial conflict, I know that God's work is not done. And somehow I have found that when I have refused to listen and repent and change, I have been struck, just like Paul.
For the record, I am not a Presbyterian, although I am attending a Presbyterian church. And NEVER have I heard predestination used as a justification for sin, but rather, as a reason for repentence and gratitude. Gratitude is what a Christian has for something that they receive that they did not deserve. Nobody Christ saves deserves it. Christ saves people without regard to race. It is not a justification for sin. It is a reason to want to try to be more worthy of the blessing.
Predestination is NOT predetermination. Not by any means. Not by a long shot. And anyone who preaches that it is would be a wolf in the flock.
Best wishes for continued spiritual growth and blessing.
CT. Nobody is righteous. Not one. But there is such a thing as false doctrine. Preaching that Paul was anything other than a Saint is false doctrine.
Dawn
I do pray for you.