President Obama; Dick Cheney & Torture
President Obama; Dick Cheney & Torture
A Rose By Any Other Name Is Still A Rose
ON May 21, 2009 President Obama and former vice President Dick Cheney spoke to different audiences on how each saw the questioning of accused terrorists when it concerned the national security of the United States of America. President Obama in his speech stated the following:
The Department of Justice will today release certain memos issued by the Office of Legal Counsel between 2002 and 2005 as part of an ongoing court case. These memos speak to techniques that were used in the interrogation of terrorism suspects during that period, and their release is required by the rule of law.
President Obama felt that the release of these photos was required by law. Former vice president Cheney thought otherwise because on the same day in his speech he said “Releasing the interrogation memos was flatly contrary to the national security interests of the United States.” The question posed by each man’s statement is paramount to America’s very foundation on which is built the nation’s future. Does America’s interest trump its laws? In other words, can breaking the law be acceptable if to do so is seen by the President and Vice-President as an act to protect America’s interest? Let’s search for an answer.
President Obama said:
My judgment on the content of these memos is a matter of record. In one of my very first acts as President, I prohibited the use of these interrogation techniques by the United States because they undermine our moral authority and do not make us safer. Enlisting our values in the protection of our people makes us stronger and more secure. A democracy as resilient as ours must reject the false choice between our security and our ideals, and that is why these methods of interrogation are already a thing of the past.
President Obama stands in line with one of the most respected founding fathers of this nation. Benjamin Franklin himself said that a man willing to give up his rights for safety deserves neither. So we see that President Obama sees the release of these memos which in his opinion, showed that America took part in torture is info that the public already knows and to release the memos is to uphold America’s moral authority. In essence the President’s decision is saying it is the right of the American public to know what the government is doing in the name of the people. Dick Cheney attacks this position by saying:
Even before the interrogation program began, and throughout its operation, it was closely reviewed to ensure that every method used was in full compliance with the Constitution, with our statutes, and treaty obligations. On numerous occasions, leading members of Congress, including the current speaker of the House, were briefed on the program and on the methods.
Wow! How can the same behavior be looked at so differently. Is waterboarding torture, and against the law, or is it not? According to Jonathan S. Landay, McClatchy Newspapers
Cheney indicated that the Bush administration doesn't regard water-boarding as torture, and allows the CIA to use it. "It's a no-brainer for me," Cheney said at one point in an interview.
Cheney's comments, in a White House interview Tuesday with a conservative radio talk show host, appeared to reflect the Bush administration's view that the president has the constitutional power to do whatever he deems necessary to fight terrorism.
Does that mean even break the law? But Cheney does not believe the law was broken. But what does the Army, his fellow Republicans who are legislators and also who are lawyers say about waterboarding?
The U.S. Army, senior Republican lawmakers, human rights experts and many experts on the laws of war, however, consider water-boarding cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment that is banned by U.S. law and by international treaties that prohibit torture.
What? Surely this is a mis-quote. Surely Cheney’s republican comrades see supporting his position as being in the interest of the party. Would members of Cheney’s own party go against the interest of the party so as to make more important the moral standing of the nation? Hold on, Landay is getting ready to name names. Now don’t get mad at me. I didn’t write the following words. This is what Landay said was told to him:
Republican Sens. John Warner of Virginia, John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina have said that a law Bush signed last month prohibits water-boarding. The three are the sponsors of the Military Commissions Act, which authorized the administration to continue its interrogations of enemy combatants.
Graham, a military lawyer who serves in the Air Force Reserve, reaffirmed that view in an interview last week with McClatchy Newspapers.
"Water-boarding, in my opinion, would cause extreme physical and psychological pain and suffering, and it very much could run afoul of the War Crimes Act," he said, referring to a 1996 law. "It could very much open people up to prosecution under the War Crimes Act, as well as be a violation of the Detainees Treatment Act."
A revised U.S. Army Field Manual published last month bans water-boarding as "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment."
Now Mr. Cheney, it appears that your own party members, who authorized your interrogation techniques, are telling you that George W. Bush, when he was President, and you were vice-President, signed into law that if someone used waterboarding as an interrogation technique then that person using the technique is breaking the law!! President Obama in his releasing of the memos that confirm the use of waterboarding said the following:
The United States is a nation of laws. My Administration will always act in accordance with those laws, and with an unshakeable commitment to our ideals. That is why we have released these memos, and that is why we have taken steps to ensure that the actions described within them never take place again.
In April of 2009 President Obama along with other Democratic leaders said “they would resist efforts by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other prominent Democrats to create a special commission to investigate the harsh interrogation methods that the Bush administration approved for terrorism suspects.” Mr. Cheney, President Obama is trying to give you a pass. This was the President’s initial stance. He said that he did not want to prosecute the people who carried out the waterboarding when they were advised by President Bush’s legal staff that what was being done was legal. President Obama was trying to forgive you. However, because of your continued attacks on the President’s integrity the people of the country are calling for him to prosecute those who devised the policy. Mr. Cheney, that appears to be you. The people are saying that it is not in the interest of the country to let the people who authorized waterboarding to get away with breaking the law. Instead of you, Mr. Cheney, being as quiet as you were as Vice-President you have become the most vocal of voices to somehow prove that President Obama did not take serious his oath to uphold the laws of America and to protect it at all cost within the parameters of the law. Really, I think President Obama’s knows that to prosecute you, and possibly even the former President, would cause deep divisions within this country. However, Mr. Cheney your continuous refrain is not giving him much choice. Stop it!! You want to call what members of your own party call torture as the practice of “enhanced interrogation technique.” Mr. Cheney, a rose by any other name is still a rose. You must accept that your perceived interest which you were willing to realize at the expense of the law has lost the election. People voted for a change. People put the law over your perceived interests. The people’s voted shouted loud and clear that Dick Cheney’s interests is not seen as the interest of the country. You can either go along with the change that people voted for, or get run over by its current. The choice is yours. If you choose to continue as you have, then you have chosen your interest over the laws of the land which is not in the best interests of the country. Your choice will truly tell all whether you love America more than you love yourself. Our eyes are on you. Thank you for listening to AjabuSpeaks.
Rev. Ajabu
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Since I usually have something to say about your concerns, I'll try to make this simple. If their forebears only reason to tortured blacks were just because, why would whites of all people believe it never happened to non white prisoners. Futhermore I wonder if they tortured Tim McVeigh before he blew up the building in Oklahoma City and injured at least 800, killed about 168 people including children, at the cost to the city of more than 652 million dollars. It's their nature.
Peace
Excellent treatise, Rev. Ajabu. You are right on point. By pointing out the contradictions that characterize this rhetoric on national security and the use of torture is to reveal the profound hypocrisies of the old administration.
I missed any earlier indication Nancy Pelosi wanted to investigate the use of water boarding. I certainly don’t understand why Obama feels it will divide the country—between the fascists and the Americans in it? I am an American who doesn’t understand why Americans in high public office can’t be prosecuted for doing anything against the Constitution or any other law of this country. I don’t consider it politically devisive—I don’t think you can perceive yourself as a country of laws if you don’t enforce them and prosecute any lawbreaker, most especially those who think wealth, privilege, and access are good exceptions to the law. Nope. Not in my book.
Take it back to Chaucer if you’d like (in some version of early English he asks what wonder is it that if gold rusts then iron will rot?) I myself figure if you’re going to make an example of someone, start at the top and work your way down. There is not a petty criminal in the country that wouldn’t expect to be prosecuted for assault and battery; water boarding is far worse than that—plus it is a conspiracy.
Allowing government wrongdoing is not good for the country. An agency’s criminal conduct is worse than an individual’s crime—just as it is worse for police officers, with the support of the entire police force, to beat a confession out of an arrestee and try to hide the evidence or confuse the issue of what happened. Those in authority must rise to a higher standard. How are they going to do that if they’re let off the hook?
What encouragement does that give a whistle blower within a corrupt governmental body or enforcement entity to out those doing wrong? How will you ever stop wrongdoing at high levels (and hence all the way down the chain of command) if you remove all incentive for doing right and increase all incentive for doing wrong? We insisted Germany try its war criminals while it also focused on recovering from the war. We lack time and good reason to try our own war criminals and traitors? Concentrating on our economic recovery is more important than calling those (who not just incidentally also put us on the fiscal ropes) even to the carpet to explain their blatantly heinous treatment of enemy combatants?
A madman who won’t take the pass President Obama handed him for obvious criminal conduct claims water boarding isn’t against the law—that’s a far cry from “it was wrong and I’ll never do or advocate it again”—is about as devoted to truth, honor, beauty, and country now as he was when he was 2nd in command and doing his utmost to have intelligence agencies help the military improve its use of all the CIA’s clearly illegal tactics. Don’t tell him to hush. Encourage him to keep ranting and raving. He needs to be locked up—at long last!!!
I think we’ve ignored crimes in high places far too long. If a revolution is the only solution, let it be a revolution in thinking: it need not be an eye for an eye, but we as a people need to insatiably demand SOME accountability and some negative consequences.
Obama cannot lead the way, without ending up dead—and I don’t want that to happen. This makes it all the more imperative that the people of America MAKE government leaders do the right thing, and that includes investigating and prosecuting wrong-doers—especially those in high rich places. If there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats we need to make one. We need to make the party in charge of our country realize we are determined that it will live up to the founding documents and principles of our nation if there is to be any difference between Nazi Germany, totalitarian China or Russia, and America
Given the philosophy stated above, please let me know what you think about the video and the article below.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3179462717908405974
The foregoing historical documentary attributes the deaths and debacles in the Kennedy family and other murders and attacks to fascists who have ruled America since World War II and other like-minded fascists. In discussing America now, Mr. Celente explains why changing the party heading the government doesn’t change policy by describing the fascist State in America as a two-headed snake. I.e., the Republican and Democratic party each arise from the same body of evil: fascism.
Brother Ajabu,
Sharon couldn't have said it better. We, as American citizens and taxpayers, are to blame for the debacle this country is now facing. We went to sleep at the wheel and allowed to happen what President Eisenhower warned us against - the military/industrial complex. Our government is under the control of the rich and powerful. They have put in place the best government money can buy. They have influenced that government to pass laws that make it legal to financially rape American citizens.
Capitialism is evil at it's core because it encourages, actually demands focus on profit above all else. Unrestrained capitalism, which we have today, leads to unspeakable acts of evil - draining the value of the homes and investments of the American people, rushing untested drugs to market, degrading the quality of the food, water and air, shifting the tax burden from the rich to the poor, fighting wars without provocation, etc.
When will the people rise up and say, "Enough is enough. It is time to clean house and start anew."?
My brother, once upon a time we respected men of honor, integrity and truth. Today, money and power trumps honesty, transparency, integrity and honor.
Is America ready to take back control of it's government so that it is once again, "of the people, by the people and for the people"? I certainly hope so. Continue to speak truth to power, my brother.
Thank you Rev. Ajabu,
The topic of torture is extremely important, not just the torture that we imposed against prisoners of war which is a war crime, but the torture that we impose upon our own citizens in every prison and jail throughout the USA.
In my personal struggle for social justice within the USA, I have witnessed and experienced torture within the walls of these buildings that have nothing to do with rehabilitation, but everything to do with inflicting suffering and hopelessness.
My question to every inmate who is about to be released is "are you more angry and dangerous now that you are about to be released or are you now on a path of obeying the law? Almost every prisoner stated that they were more willing to break the law and would rather go down fighting than return to jail.
In the USA, we have more prisoners per capita than any other country on Earth.
When the police lie to help with their "bust", when the prosecutors are paid the big bucks to put the citizen away while the public defender has pennies to defend the accused, the same old story is repeated over and over. The law is for the rich.
If you have money you can have the best defense and get a slap on the hand, but if you are poor, than you don't stand a chance.
When George W. Bush and Dick Cheney break the rule of law and get away with it, then we digress into a lawless society.
Call it the trickle down lawlessness.
These rich criminals deserve to be tried for not just breaking the International rule of law and the Law of War for their support of torture, but to be tried for the most serious crime against humanity, that is, preemptive war.
The Chief Justice of the Nuremberg Trials following WWII stated; "The most serious crime against humanity is preemptive war because of the massive death and destruction that is caused and because it involves the entire world."
I am opposed to the death penalty, however, I believe that if George W. Bush and Dick Cheney were imprisoned for the rest of their natural lives without the possibility of parole, justice would be done and we could begin the healing that is so important.
Justice....Just us Rich Folk. If the US Republic is to proceed than justice must be administered blindly, with no consideration for status, religion, race or nationality.
Yes, we the American people allowed the erosion of our civil liberties, the torture of prisoners,(domestic and foreign), the "war without end" and a class warfare against the poor, environmental degradation of the air, water, forests, fisheries and much more.
This is not about Republican or Democrat. Both parties are guilty of taking donations from big oil, big pharmacy, and the military industrial complex.
The time has come to stand up and be counted. Our President cannot do this alone, he needs our support to end the erosion of everything that we hold dear.
Only if we act can we realize the "American Dream".
And only if we obey the rule of law domestically and within foreign affairs will we be able to be proud of being called an American.
Mmoja,
Waterboarding: All recruits in the Navy Seals are waterboarded.
I was briefly waterbarded in College and it is not all that bad.
They can drown you. They do not want to in order that you reveal..Talk.
The Geneva Convention is not clear on waterboarding for terrorists, Just unformed recognized Solders. The Convention does not afford non commission soldiers any rights.
...So technically Bush/Cheney did not break the law.
War is just that, but Terrorists cut off the heads of US Citizens and Soldiers and the Terrorists ask for lawyers when we catch them. Now that tells you what they think of our law... A joke regarding them.
Obama spoke of Churchill's high moral practice and conscience regarding the treatment of Hitler's captured Soldiers by the British Allies.
Once again the left wing press did not correct him. Churchill wanted to more extensively torture than any European Ally and he did to the point that his own Generals and Secret Service stopped him from his extreme advocacy beyond where he had already gone. He violated the Geneva Convention Extensively. One again Obama is wrong and goes unchecked by a press that is not journalistic, truthful or objective. They have admitted the liberal bias.
Ask yourself.... What kind of person are you ? An the ones who have allowed us to live free of ATTACK for 7.5 years.
If you pick up arms and fight wars, you have a say. If you don't it is merely an attack on the Party who came before your reign.
Our President is a smart guy but not following the Constitution. He is surrounded by liars and does not have any intention of keeping either one of us with the rights we have now or the merger wealth to live modestly. He is a Fascist, a Socialist and both Parties have become basically one.
Neither Party respects The Constitution or your and my State's Rights.
The time to hold them back is now !
As for Terrorists, It is kill or be killed. Religion has nothing to do with it.
They respect us not for what we say but for our ability to help them when they decide to stand on that side of the room or kill them when they decide to direct deadly force toward us..
This television bickering is Children fighting for political position. Obama had better get right with the Constitution.
Terrorists really don't like him. Like Hitler, he will probably go Mad.
God help him and God help us. Thieves and power mongers are everywhere.
There are too may people in the world.
The Governments of developed Countries are too large and too opressive.
We in the US are overtaxed and under employed.
It serves greed and a desire for the Government to enslave. They have been successful.
They are near there end as we suffer our losses.
Regards, Jim.
Dear Friends, Colleagues and Supporters,
1. Watch this video
2. Donate
3. Digg this video
Dick Cheney says that torturing detainees has saved American lives. That claim is patently false. Cheney's torture policy was directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of American servicemen and women.
Matthew Alexander was the senior military interrogator for the task force that tracked down Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq and, at the time, a higher priority target than Osama bin Laden. Mr. Alexander has personally conducted hundreds of interrogations and supervised over a thousand of them.
"Torture does not save lives. Torture costs us lives," Mr. Alexander said in an exclusive interview at Brave New Studios. "And the reason why is that our enemies use it, number one, as a recruiting tool...These same foreign fighters who came to Iraq to fight because of torture and abuse....literally cost us hundreds if not thousands of American lives."
Watch our exclusive interview with Matthew Alexander.
As Ryan Grim at the Huffington Post reported, "Alexander easily takes down Cheney's arguments...The video is at once an effective rebuke of the former vice president and a sign of how the changing media landscape can flatten the field of political debate."
Professional interviews like this one are possible because your support has helped us build Brave New Studios, a state-of-the-art studio at our Culver City offices. Brave New Studios allows us to do the work the mainstream media routinely fails to do: to rebut lies from people like Dick Cheney with the personal testimonies of those like Mr. Alexander who have seen the facts on the ground. We are committed to bringing you more exclusive interviews and need your help. Contribute to Brave New Studios with a $20 donation.
With the mainstream media obsessing over the personal feud between the President and the former Vice President instead of on the critical question of whether torture has led to thousands of American casualties, the work at Brave New Studios and your contribution are more important than ever.
Yours,
Robert Greenwald
and the Brave New Foundation team
Hey Rev,
Thanks for sending that along. I thought Obama in his Memorial Speech at Arlington yesterday showed the first real glimmers that he "gets it" regarding the terrorist threat to this country. He said he "would do anything" to keep us free. If he means that - and I hope he does - then all this moralizing about whether or not waterboarding is or is not torture is just public puffery over trying to find the darkest part of a cloud over the success of the Bush administration. We're past that. We need to move on. Cheney has been around national politics, national security, and the executive branch since - what? - the Ford administration. Cheney absolutely gets it and was probably even more to thank than President Bush for the fact that the U.S. hasn't been hit again since 9-11. On national security and anti-terrorism since 9-11, I think the best thing Bush did was utilize Cheney to the fullest. The worst thing happening right now is the awful Liberal Left continuing to focus so much energy on hating Bush and Cheney that it is missing the point of what will secure us from a terrorist attack ... information. In dangerous times, how that information is obtained is less a concern that the safety, for example, of my children. Moralizing is easy for either side, and winds up being off point when you think back carefully to how almost all of us felt in September 2001. Obama holding off on releasing those memos is smart; and the cry to release them to make eight years of safety look bad - to square a political hysteria that is largely without merit - is irresponsible. With this Korea nuclear threat developing, I'm impressed with Obama's quickly maturing capabilities and attitudes in the arena of keeping a difficult international peace. I worry that Liberals are so busy wanting their way that they miss the real problem, and that is containing Korea, terrorism, and the bad guys wherever they may be. Obama has had to grow up fast, and I think Pelosi, Reid and so many other Liberals are still slobbering in their tipper cups, not maturing on the leadership aspects required today. Under Bush, they didn't have to. Bush "got it." Obama is "getting it" and hopefully the rest of the Liberals will learn from that.
Now, Matthew 5:39 tells us all to turn the other cheek. I can't think of a single New Testament verse that tells us to protect our nations, because as Christians we are citizens of heaven. Romans 13 tells us to obey our leaders and pay our taxes, but only in the Old Testament does anyone - including God - go to war over nations or territory. We should all be prepared to have a big shock on Judgement Day when we find out that just maybe Jesus meant what he said about turning the other cheek. I still believe we should fight to defend our country ... but I can't prove it by anything I learn from the new covenant. Sinner and hypocrite that I am, that's what I think.
God bless you my friend,
Bob
Jim,
You say the following:
Our President is a smart guy but not following the Constitution. He is surrounded by liars and does not have any intention of keeping either one of us with the rights we have now or the merger wealth to live modestly. He is a Fascist, a Socialist and both Parties have become basically one.
Are you saying that President Obama is not following the constitution because he will not prosecute Cheney for breaking the law? What right do you see President Obama taking from American citizens? I ask you this before and didn't get an answer. Your statements are strong. Please clarify.
Bob,
You are also confusing me. How can you be willing to do anything to protect your children and advocate turning the other cheek if someone hits you? Does not turning your other cheek apply also if someone hits your child? Please clarify.
Before reading my statement--which I greatly encourage all to do so--please understand that I do not care about political parties and I do want what's best for all people in politics whether it is President Obama or former President Bush because it is the right thing to do, however, I will not hide the fact that I am philosophical Libertarian whereas I believe in freedom whether it is economic or social liberty and I know that the only way we can be a free society is to respect the very rights of the people to live their lives as they choose and accept the individual responsibility of their actions. The blessing we have as Americans is not for the government to save us from our mistakes, but to give us the ability to redefine ourselves once we make mistakes so that if we fail in a business venture or a marriage, we are afforded the chance learn and grow and actually have success in our very lives. This is also the same blessing that God gave all of us through his love as we are all sinners and have a chance to repent and move forward to live a fruitful life.
In regards to Mr. Mmoja Ajabu's blog, I fear that his argument is very one-sided for members of Congress--including Nancy Pelosi--were aware of "enhanced interrogation techniques" and did not do a thing to speak out against it. You also failed to mention one particular man (Congressman Ron Paul) who has stood against his own party and was ridiculed for his position against these actions.
I have spoken for years against "enhanced interrogation techniques" and knew from the moment it was released to the American people that water boarding is torture and against our nation's laws and the Geneva Convention and I'm sure our elected representatives should have known this to be the case too or they lack the moral compass to defend our nation's laws and should resign immediately.
As far as I'm concerned, President Obama has clearly lied about many things prior to taking the Executive branch over. He mentioned that he was going to close down Guantanemo (sp)--now he has shifted gears and will imprison people indefinatly without any due process of law. He stated that he will release the photos of the torture--again he has changed his tune by claiming that releasing photos of torture--which the world already knows had happened--would engender serious "national security" concerns--that is ridiculous! He has claimed that he was not supportive of the Patriot Act, National Homeland Security Directives, and so forth and shortly after taking office, he has expanded the powers of these unconstitutional acts. He has promised responsibility and transparency in the government only for us to find out that www.Recover.gov is hardly considered transparent and the very nature that he has spent $1 million dollars defending himself from releasing his actual birth certificate (I have verified this myself) to confirm if he is a naturalized American citizen per the US Constitution requirements of being the head of the Executive branch--I just say, if he's legal, then just release the actual Birth Certificate (not the Certificate of Birth which is a different type of document which he has released) and let's move on from this nonsense.
Recently, President Obama gave a tremendous speech of responsibility by cutting $17 billion from the latest budget whereas he increased the budget from the previous administration by over $1 trillion dollars. How is that responsible?
Then, with the issue of the bonuses received by AIG who was given bailout monies, President Obama grandstanded when all along he knew about the bonuses and even his Treasury Secretary (Geitner) sent a message to Chris Dodd (who admitted it in the news) to remove the provisions in the $800+ billion dollar stimulus bill which would deny the people their bonuses. Did the American people realize that during this same moment, Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac's (who also received a great deal of public monies in bailouts) gave out billions of dollars in bonuses when the AIG issue occurred? Of course not, it's all a slight of hand--a magical trick of picking winners and losers in our economy and destroying contracts with people who took a deep pay cut (and practically became commissioned employees through bonuses only to find out that they did not get paid a dime for their services and also were threatened by Americans for a contract the even our Government was aware of...
Now that we have the looming Chrysler and GM situation, we are literally screwing Indiana teachers and police officers pension funds as they had invested into Chrysler bonds (debts) to keep this company solvent and they were promised by the nature of US credit laws a priority position to collect on the debts first to satisfy their risks all in the wake of the US Government stealing taxpayer's monies to bail out these companies and never even renegotiated with the bond holders during that time to be considered as a priority lien holder. So the government now wants to rewrite credit (contract) laws midstream and this is sending a violent chill amongst investors who now have to decide if buying bonds to help capitalize American companies is a profitable venture. Who in their right mind would entertain in investing in American companies if they knew that their investment could be destroyed by the very nature of government intervention?
If the courts rule against bond holders in this matter, I can assure you that there will be a mass exodus of capital to foreign markets and we will see thousands of businesses (many of them even profitable ones) go belly up and then unemployment skyrocket in our nation because faith in US credit laws will be destroyed.
Wayne,
You gave us a lot of info, but would you say that Cheney should be quiet and not publicly forment his obvious guilt. Or do you think that President Obama should prosecute him and put him and possible former President Bush both in jail? And if Nancy Pelosi is guilty of knowing that torture was being used then try her also. You gave us a stirring economic lesson, but would you put people in jail who approved the policy to torture people? Or would you take the stance of President Obama and say to lock up these people would be to devisive and distract the country from the looming economic colapse that has to be address?
Mr. Ajabu, here is my response to you...
I believe that every person involved in the planning, implementation, and administration of torture should be arrested and brought to justice. Those who turned a blind eye and did not speak out are also responsible and should be held accountable.
As far as Mr. Cheaney, Mrs. Pelosi, or others goes, I am not asking them to stop talking, but actually, I am asking the media to start asking hard hitting questions and demand answers from all sides. This issue is not about political parties, it's about how the USA stands upon protecting people's liberties as instructed by the US & State's Constitutions and follows the rule of law as instructed upon them. Again, We The People are the masters of our government. Our elected officials are our public servants...they serve We The People. It's coming close to the time when we need to sweep out the disease that has infected both political parties and start electing people who respects their oaths of office which is to defend our Constitution. What good is a person's oath if they do not follow it?
..............................................
If you want to know my responses to torture, please visit my blog of www.propertyfreedom.blogspot.com and you will see many citations in the past several months about my concerns.
I apologize for my stylistic errors in my long-winded blog above. Please feel free to contact me if I did not communicate an idea properly as it's important to me that I am held accountable by the ideas I present.
Rev Ajabu
It is so amusing to hear bloggers state emphatically that they don't believe in political parties. Why pretend that you are not in favor of the Democrats or the Republicans. The country works by having citizens choose a party and then vote for a candidate. We have to operate politically with parties which also include the Independents and others.
The Republican Party that was led by George W Bush was in charge of the Iraq War, the deaths of over 4500 soldiers in Iraq, a war in Afghanistan, an economic meltdown, decreased respect around the globe, and now torture. There is no need in dragging Nancy Pelosi into this Republican problem. All the conservative Republicans want is dto distract the people from seeing how criminal they have been while in control of this country.
The Democrats were not in control and none of them should be dragged into the Republican criminal wartime activities. Leave Nancy Pelosi alone. If it had not been for liberals like her, we Blacks would still be in Slavery. You can track the Liberal actions from helping the slaves to read, the Abolitionist Movement, the Civil Rights Movement, and their overwhelming support of the first Black president.
Be very careful how you attack the liberal Democrats because they have been our greatest help. When you look at Michael Steele, the babbling idiot who leads the Republican National Committee, Clarence Thomas, the big Black bear who sits on the U.S. Supreme Court, and so many other Black conservative traitors, you can appreciate the White Liberal Democrats who have fought long and hard for the poor and the disconnected citizens.
The greatest enemies of Black people in America are first the traitorous uncle toms [Clarence Thomas, Michael Steele, Armstrong Williams, Shelby Steele, Condolezza Rice and many more]; the Southern conservative confederate Democrats, and all of the Republicans. We have been fighting these enemies since slavery. What is so shortsighted is the notion that the Liberal Democrats have not been good for the poor and the downtrodden. It disturbs me to see Blacks go on the attack of the only group that has consistently fought for fairness and inclusion and they are the Liberal Democrats.
John, a very proud Liberal Democrat
John,
I am with Wayne on this one. Political parties are killing America. However, I might depart company with him concerning Pelosi. Knowing someone is committing torutre is not criminal, is it? Committing torture is the crime, isn't it? This is where me and Wayne may differ. I don't think that we should support criminal behavior no matter who commits it. I am all for being fair, and even for leniency. However, we all must be held accountable for our actions. Not for other people's actions, but for our actions.
Minister Ajabu,
I must submit one final thought on this particular blog that no one seems willing to recognize. Why? Why would Bush and Cheney apply these barbaric techniques on prisoners? They sought "confessions" that linked Iraq's strongman Hussein to Al Queda. Bush and Cheney wanted to find an excuse to murder innocent men, women and children.
If Bush and Cheney get away with murder do not be surprised if murder becomes more commonplace in this nation than ever. America is already one of the most dangerous countries in the world. Where do we go next?
Keep the faith, my brother. Wes
Rev Ajabu
Lets explore the need for political parties. What would you replace the American political framework with? Can you imagine a democracy operating without political parties?
The Republicans are removing any moderate Republicans from their party. If they don't talk like Rush Limbaugh, Hannity, Dick Cheney, and Newt they must go. This is great because soon they will have more Republicans out of their party than inside. They are calling Colin Powell a Democrat because he is a moderate Republican.
This is such great news for the Democratic Party. A party that is representative of America. We have Blacks, Whites, Asians, Hispanics, Jews, Gays, Straights, the poor and the rich. We are the face of America. I can't imagine the Hispanics and Blacks ever going to the Republicans.
If Republicans can't tolerate the moderate Republicans, I know full well they don't want the liberals that are packed in the Democratic Party.
The Republicans are isolated into the deep South, hanging with the Confederate red neck racists who really don't like America. They would secede from the Union if they could survive without those Federal dollars.
I would say we have them [Republicans] by the balls. They are drowning in their own blood as they shoot at each other for stupid reasons. We need to help eliminate as many of them as possible and soon Reverend you will not have to worry about political parties because we will have only one left. The Republicans are self destructing and are doing this country a great favor.
I know the subject on this blog was Torture, I would submit the Republicans are torturing each other. I love it.
John
Minister Ajabu,
Please allow me to respond to John Marshall's comment about political parties in this country. Although I agree with John regarding the self-destructive behaviors of the radical right wing portion of the GOP, there is a fact of nature that we must consider.
Nature hates a vacuum. Sooner or later, either a third political party will arise or the moderates of the Republican party will regain control of their party.
Many of us are of the opinion that all political parties, by their very nature, are narrow-minded and lack the broad-based appeal of the majority. In other words, Americans are usually forced to choose between one party or the other.
The truth is no one party has ever represented all the interests of all the people. Otherwise, we would not still be plaqued with malfeasence in high office, influence peddling, bought elections, racism and homophobia among other things. Perhaps what is really needed is a national movement to acheive basic human rights - a job paying a living wage, universal health care, expanded Social Security to replace 'pension' scams, and severe penalties for violating the law.
Now it the time of all times to press for these benefits because America is being saved by indebting our futures, our children's future and our grandchildren's future. If not now, when?
May you continue to speak truth to power, for true power rests with the people.
Your brother, Wes
Wes
I respectfully submit to you that the Democratic Party under the leadership of Roosevelt,Johnson, Clinton, and now Obama have and will continue to lift up the ordinary American citizens. With the exception of President Johnson [Viet Nam War] and Jimmy Carter [a big failure], the Democratic presidents have helped those who need a lift.
Contrast those aforementioned presidents with Republican leaders like Herbert Hoover, Ronald Reagan, George Bush I and George Bush II and you can clearly see the opposite effect on the poor and downtrodden in America. I think Nixon was on track but his crookedness sent him home.
The debt that we are struggling with today is Republican made. You know Clinton handed George W Bush a healthy surplus and a world at peace. Three months later, Bush had the world sinking into debt and he left office with the whole planet in trouble.
So far, we can say that the Democrats have governed much better than the Republicans; based on the condition of the American people at the end of their terms. I agree with you that one party will not dominate but far so long but it is very unlikely that the Republicans will be in control any time soon. The Hispanics, Blacks, Asians, Jews, Liberals, and Moderates will not move to the Republicans any time soon unless something drastically happens to the Democrats.
John
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/obama_administration/daily_presidential_tracking_poll
Sorry, John. Any way you read the poll I have referred to, above, America is getting pretty nervous about the massive government takeover of the economy. Based on the failure of every other government run business venture of the past, you should be nervous, too.
President Obama's popularity is shifting fast. Even with the help of an out of control liberal press fawning shamelessly. People like President Obama as a person, but do not believe that the government holds the permanent solution to our economic problems. Why do they feel this way? Because the government has NEVER successfully been able to run a business.
Don't believe me?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124277530070436823.html
Obama has great skills in reducing the tensions in a heated discussion. It is a great advantage to our country. He is willing to address tough issues and bring people together.
But too often, his answer is big government. Government has a role to play as a regulator. But the level of debt we have taken on as a country has put our national security at risk, and the level of government intervention we are allowing will be reversed in the next election cycle.
Are you aware that we now have saddled every American family with over 500,000 in federal debt? This has quadrupled since Bush left office. And he was (with the help of Congress) a terrible mismanager of the budget.
I pray daily for our President and our leaders, but Americans will not sit for the nationalization of our country.
Not here to argue. If you respond, John....FYI....I won't be responding back. I don't argue with irrational, angry people. It's frustrating and pointless. As a Christian, I don't want to live angry. You just need to be pointed to rational articles and information sources on occasion. Maybe someday, a lightbulb will go off.
Americans will not sit for Cap and Trade.
Americans will not sit for a VAT or national sales tax.
The most recent polls indicate that over 60% of Americans would choose any unnamed Republican over any unnamed Democrat in an election to be held today.
Wake up, John. Americans still love our President, but they do not support a massive expansion of government power and that's what they believe they are seeing.
Correction.
I misheard and want to correct a misstatement. The most recent Rasmussen poll shows that support for democrats has in fact declined significantly in May and June, the parties now poll evenly according to Rasmussen.
INDEPENDENTS are growing the most rapidly.
I agree with Jim on everything except one thing....that our current president is "smart." Obama and the democrats have NO foundation to stand on, they have absolutely NO substance. Look at the things that they stand for: abortion (killing babies), gay marriage (the breakdown of the traditional family), global warming(which is a hoax and even ALGORE knows it), rights for terrorists (remember 9-11?), keeping the poor poor (welfare) and rewriting the Constitution (which is idiocracy)...Republicans have morals,faith and dependency on God (not the gov't.), respect for life and the Constitution. Obama's first few months in office and he has done nothing but tear down our country here and on foreign soil. That's far from being "smart."
Rev Ajabu
I was just about to answer Dawn, the Disgusted Christian Conservative, until I read Beth's pitiful defense of the most racist and ruthless political party that has been on this planet since the Nazis in Germany. Maybe that is why so many Neo Nazis love the conservative Republicans in this country.
Lets start with all of these morals that Beth attributes to the Republicans. Ted Haggard was the leader over 2 million Evangelicals and we learned later that he had a gay lover and he was on drugs. Don't leave out the male Republican Senator caught in the airport restroom trying to pick up a man.
I guess Beth is proud of Dick Cheney's push to go to Iraq and then make a killing off of us with Haliburton, a Cheney connected company that made $millions. It is proven that Bush and Cheney lied about those weapons of mass destruction.
Poor Beth announced that Democrats are baby killers because many allow the woman to choose. We have 9 and 10 year olds who are raped by a stranger and sometimes by her own family member and becomes pregnant. The family may or may not choose to allow the unfortunate preteen to have an abortion. We have pregnancies in which the child will be so severely deformed and retarded and the mother may or may not choose to abort. And finally, I grew up when one of my high school classmates died while trying to abort with a clothes hangar because safe clinical abortions were not available.
I would love to see the pro life advocates come forward and prepare to take care of some of these babies that they are killing doctors to not abort. Some of the children born will have to be taken care of their entire life due to severe mental and physical problems. I have never heard of one Pro lifer declaring that they will intervene into a woman's private life and be willing to help care for these children that make it to this earth. Beth, have you volunteered to take care of the millions of starving babies in this so called great America? You do know that the infant mortality rate in the United States in up their with many Third World countries?
We have over 40 million Americans who do not have health insurance and no access to the American medical system. We have over 46 million Americans who are not getting enough food to eat. With the current economic tsunami caused by your Republicans, we have tent cities popping up for the homeless. Mothers and children are turned away from overcrowed shelters. Where are all these Republican conservatives with all of their Christian love for the poor?
Democrats had to fight the Republicans in Congress just to feed the hungry,[minimum wage] shelter those out of doors; and it takes policies that will reach the large masses that are in need. But we have to fight Republicans every time we try to lift up the downtrodden. Bush ran up the debt after Clinton; and Obama is trying to dig us out of the Republican economic hole. I guarantee you the American people will support the Democrats for the next century because when you compare the ignorance of Bush and Cheney, we can see why Democrats are in power and will remain so. Compare the brilliance of Clinton and Obama to Bush I and II and even lightweight Ronald Reagan. There is no comparison. Don't believe any poll that says the Republicans and Democrats are dead even. You don't believe that!!
After that brilliant speech in Cairo, Barack Obama has captivated the whole world. Bill and Hillary Clinton left this country in the greatest economic shape ever and watch Barack and Michelle Obama do likewise.
Thank God for the liberal Democrats of this nation. We had people like that during Slavery. They risked their lives just trying to teach slaves how to read. That liberal White American is still the glue that continues to whole this thing together but the Republican Conservatives tried so hard to tear down this grat country.
john
George W Bush raised the poverty level even higher just as his Republican president Herbert Hoover did in the Great Depression. We enjoyed peace and prosperity under Bill Clinton until Republican George Bush came to power. Bush has to be Satan in order to cause the whole planet to sink into a great toilet. We had a similar situation under Herbert Hoover. And you dare attack Democrats who have rescued us time and time again from the Republicans.
http://www.crimemagazine.com/boykillergacy.htm
It is time for John Marshall to stop holding up Ted Haggard as a Republican standard.
John, did you know that John Wayne Gacy was a precinct committeeman and Democrat fundraiser? So I think he is a representative example of the minds of Democrats? No. That would be irrational.
You can't hold an individual as a representative of a belief system. It is irrational. Oh, yeah. I forgot who I'm talking to. Never mind.
My Lord,
John,
Your exchange with Dawn and Deb is classic reasoning on why I say that party politics are killing America. You ask me how would American politics be conducted without political parties. Very simple. Right there in Atlanta, in the state that you live, the mayoral race is non partisan. Voters choose the person, not the party. A candidated may be in a party, but on the ballot, the party has no place. So people from all persuasions run. Normally, this open ended primary creates a run-off between the two candidates that get the most votes. All good. If we start to support the right people, instead of what we see is right for our party, then the country would benefit and so would human relations. Decrease the hate, increase the love.
The next article is going to tackle the abortion issue in light of the killing of Dr. Tiller. What in the world has Christianity become? God bless.